XMR for $30?

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XMR for $30?

Postby Eugene Cojocar » Sat Oct 20, 2012 3:45 pm

Well, people continue discussing about pricing, my greediness, business models, competitors, marketing etc.
So, I created this popular thread again to stick it.
Each determines his own price. Someone thinks that its price should be only $5, someone thinks that $30 is quite enough and someone is ready to pay $80. It depends.

Can anybody name me a sim for $30 or for $5 that has:

Advanced tire models.

Open physics architecture.

Dedicated servers.

Convenient tools with WYSIWYG. You can create/edit/convert your tracks and cars very
easily. That can save a lot of time.

Every aspect of car physics can be adjustment.

SDK that can help a lot in R&D, creating devices etc.

Advanced real-time telemetry. You can check your simulation, physics
data etc.

Constant updates of XMR. I'm trying to update every 1-2 months.

Tech support. I try to help everyone who uses XMR. I'm not
sure about any other.
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Re: XMR for $30?

Postby Kahn62 » Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:57 am

The first time I played XMR it cured me of all the other almost there racing games I have ever tried. I cannot go back. I have tried and it feels totally unacceptable to go back to learning the tricks the makers use to keep you on the track, like grass brakes, and the randomness of hitting ripple-strips. No one has got a better driving simulator better than XMR. It was a bit disconcerting at first, not to have to compensate for the gamey feel that all other simulators have, and to just drive it like a car, but after a few laps, I was at home.

I have tried a variety of racing games lately and in the past, and all of the new games seem too focused on building up your character, before your cars handle properly. This is done to cater to the stupid, hopeless and young market, which is MASSIVE, compared to talented drivers, and they are prepared to pay, with real cash, to be seen to be winning. Most are barely better at their game after years of playing, than they were when they started to play it. The other companies seem to want a game where if you just hang in there, and improve your character enough, preferably by giving your money, not your time, then you can beat people eventually. You never get used to the cars that you have, as they are always changing on you, and you never learn to make what you do have simply go faster, and thus you never learn how to drive a car any better.

This is obvious to me, as I sometimes catch up to "money wasters" a bit with my character, and then start to beat them with a lesser car, and rather than hang around and learn to go faster, they usually go to another room, where they can just burn some more newbies, and increase their character further that way, rather than working on their ability a bit.

To paraphrase you, Eugene, XMR is fair, because everybody gets the same chances, the same tracks and the same cars.

I would have thought that any good driver who tried this game would be impressed, but obviously skilled drivers, and people prepared to spend some time to learn how to be skilled drivers, are way fewer, in real life, than our number of licensed drivers worldwide would imply.

I think that if you are in the top 1% of the drivers in your region, that you will love this game and soon be fast in it, and if you are prepared to learn how to really drive a car, and play XMR, then you will soon be in the top 1% of the drivers in your country, as the lessons learned in this simulation will translate directly to the real world, and may one day save your life for real, in an emergency situation.

When it is really ready to be raced properly, I think it should be priced at two hundred dollars. I say this because;

1. Yes it is just that much better than what the opposition has.

2. It will mainly appeal to people who are serious about Sim driving, and are willing to pay four or five thousand dollars for a system with a forty inch monitor, a racing wheel and the hardware to run it all well, like I have, and the cost of the game is insignificant when compared to the price of my PC.

3. I have already spent more than two hundred hours playing this game, and will do far more than that, before I tire of it. It could come down to less than ten cents an hour, for the software, for my entertainment.

4. When it is finished I plan to give Eugene more of my money, for this unparallelled game anyway.

5. For a game to amuse your kids for a while, get whatever you want, they wont play it for long anyway, but for adult entertainment this is cheap at two hundred, as you don't need to buy extra cars, upgrades and cheats, like nitrous and extra performance parts to play it.

6. I payed over three hundred dollars to Aeria games to play Project Torque, a free to play game, and then they just stopped it, with no refund, after mangling it repeatedly, by trying to wring more cash from the neck of their golden goose. I feel that Eugene wont do this to me.

7. It is a lot of work to make something better than the big boys can, by yourself, and the market is limited to racers, not gamers.
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Re: XMR for $30?

Postby Roli » Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:27 pm

i personally think that 200 dollars it too much. the quaility of the physics are good, really good if u compare it to the most games that are for pc or consoles. but for a realy car enthusiast like me some features are missing. but i know eugen is working on them really hard.

but that shouldnt be the theme in this thread. the pricing. its a very difficult thema. if this would be my creating. i probably sell it for 30 dollars but with some extra dlc content u also have to buy.

why that?

i think the first price (the 30 dollars), are the first thing a normal user can see (before he try the demo). its a good prize for a racing game (keep in mind that the most users of use a game, are normal users, not modders like some of us) (if u are a modder and after a little learing session the actual price of 50 dolars is a real present, cause u can do nearly all and if not eugene creates the feature in record time :). but again the most users are normal pc guys who just play and they do not mod (keep that in mind eugene)

my opinion is that eugene should can live with the sellings of xmr, and there is the main problem. no one ever heared the name xmr. there should be some advertising in some online magazines or stuff. and thats the problem, it costs money.

thats all i can say. we have to work together to get xmr more pro users and become a big and active community and all that think the same that xmr deserves a chance cause it have really much potential, should help us.
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Re: XMR for $30?

Postby andy » Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:32 pm

Hi guys,

I enjoy this game and wish it keeps growing and evolving.I think the sales strategy should be made such way to attract the critical mass of core players, that will be present most of the time on the public servers and forum. Have no idea how much it should cost, unfortunately the "true" value vs. price question is not very practical.

Eugene is extremely helpful and responsive, so once a customer is here, he would have few reasons to leave. Also, the effort put lately by modders to bring extra content is purely awesome if you look at the seemingly small client base.

For myself, I honestly have mixed feelings on the physics side:
- I just had a few laps with an M3 on Suzuka, and it's so much fun. I said it on other forums as well, the game is very intuitive, you are rarely taken by surprize by what the car does, you can easily save slides and correct your errors. This is a plus when comparing with some big titles, where I often have the "WTF just happened" feeling;
- on the other hand I have some doubts on the FWD cars physics, the seem extremely stable and easy to move around the tracks even at high speeds. I always thought that at the same speeds, a 911 should be easier to control on the track than a Focus.
- also there are many mods but the diferences in the feel of the cars is not as big as one would expect, comparing to other games.
- I would be happy to see real life races or at least people with big track day experience to validate the XMR physics and the overall feel of the cars.

Btw, I just upraged to 1.4 but I can't seem to find the server. Is it on, or the problem is at my connection?

Anywayas, good luck Eugene with the develpment, and hope to see this project grow.
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Re: XMR for $30?

Postby Johnny walker » Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:49 am

well worth the price.
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Re: XMR for $30?

Postby xmotoracer » Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:54 am

Johnny walker wrote:well worth the price.

totally agree.....
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Re: XMR for $30?

Postby Dan75 » Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:53 am

I purchased the $50 pro license yesterday. There were times when I wasn't sure the game was worth based on the reviews. The game is great and I'm happy with the FFB and that's the probably main point for me!
Keep it up, guys!
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Some thoughts

Postby alexdi » Sun Nov 24, 2013 7:13 am

I'm actually shocked by how good XMR is. I've played just about everything. GPL, LFS, iRacing, Assetto Corsa, GTR/2/RL, rFactor, the whole lot. The only ones that keep drawing me back are GPL, iRacing, and now, XMR. (Assetto is a little too immature to judge. Lots of potential. The spring rates don't seem quite right for many cars.) The verisimilitude with the M3 is uncanny. The F1 car is even better. I can actually feel the aerodynamics affecting the handling. I can't say XMR is the best without more cockpit time, but it's certainly way the hell up there.

On pricing: $25 is about right. That's about where your competition (LFS is probably closest right now) is. And then you've got big-budget games like Forza and GT in the $60 range, with a bazillion cars and a graphics to match.

But it could just as easily be $50 or more. What's holding it back isn't the modeling, it's the presentation. I just did a cursory search for X-Motor threads, and save for a couple of evangelists, it doesn't come up. When it does, the response is hostile. Were I Eugene, I'll bet I'd be annoyed. "They say they want physics. I give it to them, and this is the reception I get?" Presentation matters more than those folks let on.

Here's my read if you want to be taken seriously:

Change the name. No hyphens. Something evocative.

Change the website. It can't look worse than a Wordpress template. Right now, it's from 2004. Present as an organization, not an individual. Hire someone for this.

Change the game menu UI. Overhaul the functionality and the graphics. Fix the transitions between events so it doesn't look like the system has locked up until something loads. Hire someone to do the menu graphics. New fonts. All of it. Assetto is worth a hard look here.

Continue to improve the sound and the in-game graphics. Graphics look 2008ish. Both AS and Project CARS are going to redefine this category very soon. The engine samples seem decent. The menu 'click' sound is jarring.

Continue to improve the AI. I wasn't sure what to make of the M3s I was racing in the demo. They beat me in a straight line and crawl through turns.

Add multiplayer. Or is it there? I didn't see it.

Refocus your theme from 'driving simulator' to 'racing simulator'. Yeah, that's in the header, but that's not how it comes across. Not when just about everything on the site is about the physics engine. I'm personally content to do time-trials around the Ring all day long, but I'm a special flower. Most people want serious, exciting, variable opponents. From that perspective, this sim doesn't seem finished.

The fact that XMR is as good at is largely from the efforts of one person borders on astonishing. Clearly Eugene is multitalented. Problem is, games tend to be judged by the least common denominator. It starts with the name, then the website, and goes down from there. By the time people actually start driving, they're expecting to be disappointed. Not a good setup.

I think XMR would benefit enormously from becoming a team effort. id Software is a great example. Carmack was the best programmer in the business, but not terribly creative. His best games were with Romero, an average programmer with massive creativity. Neither made exceptional games after their split.

All that said... I'm going to go back to playing now. The parts I care most about are already here.
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Re: XMR for $30?

Postby Eugene Cojocar » Sun Nov 24, 2013 8:00 am

Thanks alexdi and welcome to the forum!

I've read your post very carefully. I think it's possible to change the name, site, UI etc.
I'm going to move towards this objective. I don't want to say the exact date of the XMR rebranding. Maybe in 1 or 2 years.
At first I would like to improve multiplayer, AI and sound. After that it's quite possible to launch it under new name when the game is something like "complete". Let X-Motor Racing be a working draft for a while.
As to multiplayer in the current version...yes, it's available but not popular.
The AI of the M3 is still under development...although it has been improved in the turns. You just need to download new demo version.
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Re: XMR for $30?

Postby alexdi » Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:55 pm

Working draft is a good description, though it complicates the value equation. Buyers become early-access beta testers. It won't be like that when the rudiments (AI et. al) are fully-baked. rFactor 2 appears to be taking a similar approach; it's close enough to 'done' to sell, but a lot of the game content hasn't been created yet.

My demo version is I think that's current? The risk of a one-man project is that you'll never reach feature parity. Get one thing right and everything else has moved forward in the interim. It would be difficult to weigh what to prioritize.
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